"We often talk about 'interdisciplinarity' in the singular but in fact it should be 'interdisciplinarities' in the plural"

The 'Interdisciplinary Horizons' and '80 Prime' conferences were respectively held on October 1st and 2nd and September 28th at CNRS headquarters in Paris. What were the objectives of these conferences?
Martina Knoop: There are many forms of interdisciplinarity. We often talk about 'interdisciplinarity' in the singular but in fact it should be 'interdisciplinarities' in the plural - those that bring closely related fields together but also forms that bring together disciplines with no apparent link or shared community of practice. This diversity is essential so it's normal for interdisciplinarity to be heterogeneous. Above all what counts is that scientific questions are at the core of the projects. With these two conferences, we wanted to highlight these interdisciplinarities along with their nuances, challenges, issues and tools, and also to bring together the scientists working on these projects at the interface of disciplines. 

These conferences highlighted certain questions surrounding interdisciplinary PhDs. These career paths can open a lot of doors but conversely also close others. What are the main barriers encountered by these PhD students on the academic and non-academic job markets?
M.K.: There's a number of challenges involved in recruiting PhD students for interdisciplinary projects. For example, courses are still very disciplinary in nature and there's not a very large pool of students trained in interdisciplinarity. What's more, it's impossible these days to enrol a history student in a mathematics PhD school, for example. Some universities are working towards more flexible admission requirements but there are still many obstacles. On the other hand, our survey of careers found a large majority (around two-thirds) of scientists with an interdisciplinary profile recruited to the CNRS already have experience of interdisciplinarity, often since their PhDs. That said, the feedback we receive on the recruitment of academics does show a certain entrenchment in disciplines which is often for teaching reasons. It should be added that the situation could be better on the non-academic jobs market where the thematic profiles of such theses might comply more with employer requirements. 

To what extent can interdisciplinary PhD training contribute to the dynamic of research at the CNRS?
M.K.: It is included in projects constructed over a three-year period and based on a long-term approach. PhD students learn different methods and escape rigid frameworks, all of which encourages them to think 'out of the box'. This form of training helps develop researchers who are capable of moving between disciplines which is an asset for innovative collaboration projects within the CNRS. 

What measures have the CNRS and MITI implemented to enhance the value of these interdisciplinary careers and facilitate the integration of those involved into the world of work?
M.K.: We have launched several initiatives including webinars for PhD students on subjects like managing conflicts in a research team and career prospects after a thesis. We're also working with the CNRS National Committee1  on career issues to gauge the extent to which interdisciplinarity can hinder career development. Also, we're looking at tools that can help young researchers set up interdisciplinary consortia more easily. These ideas range from bringing teams together from different disciplines to work on a common subject to thinking about the methodological obstacles to setting up interdisciplinary projects. 

The right techniques and a shared language aren't always easy to develop between different disciplines but are required to know how to co-construct, to learn how to define common scientific objectives and to define an agreed path for a project. By next year, we're planning to launch a mini-school focusing on developing methodological skills to construct interdisciplinarity that actually is a true asset.

The lack of specialist interdisciplinarity journals can be seen as an obstacle. A dedicated space for these on the HAL platform2  was announced at the conference. What are the objectives?
M.K.: This space on HAL should be created by the end of this year. The idea is to bring together all the work produced by winning MITI teams in one place, while also remaining open to other interdisciplinary projects. We'd like to create a collection that is accessible for the scientific community and widen the range of contributions beyond those on MITI projects. The CNRS already posts 80% of its publications on HAL so it's clearly the right place to promote and showcase this work.

A study of interdisciplinary projects by the MITI was presented at the 'Horizons interdisciplinaires' conference. How would you sum it up?
M.K.: This study focuses on the future of projects with support from the MITI. It particularly found that 98% of the researchers who collaborated on these projects wanted the collaborations to carry on. Also, a large majority of them (80%) want to take these projects further and plan to make funding applications to the National Research Agency (ANR) or other funding bodies, to a lesser extent. This shows there is a true leverage effect, with the MITI therefore considered an effective tool for initiating new collaborations. The MITI's calls for projects are light and agile and also considered 'simple' compared with other schemes.

Could you tell us about the impact the '80 Prime' programme (see box) has had on inter-Institute coordination?
M.K.: The '80 Prime' programme was launched in 2019 to structure interactions between CNRS Institutes through interdisciplinary projects co-led by at least two of the Institutes. This programme has helped promote smoother interaction between the Institutes and, particularly, the CNRS scientific directors (DAS). The first two years were more complicated but the efforts made have borne fruit and there is now very positive feedback from the Institutes. The programme has enabled the Institutes to appropriate interdisciplinary collaboration more effectively, with projects jointly constructed all year.

• 1The CNRS
• 2Hal is an online platform developed in 2001 for the submission and distribution of scientific articles, theses and technical reports. Publications are in open access.

Which levers need to be reinforced so these interdisciplinary collaborations are sustainable?
M.K.: It's essential to check annually that tools proposed by the MITI are adapted to the requirements of researchers and their scientific questions. For example, our call for projects on mobility should enable researchers to train in other laboratories. Some Institutes, like CNRS Chemistry, have also set up Emergence projects1  upstream of MITI projects. The idea is to construct a long-term path for the project and encourage the development of new ideas. We need to carry on adapting and adjusting our systems to respond to research teams' expectations.

The report taking stock of the '80 Prime' projects also shows collaboration between regions driving the geographical mix...
M.K.: The geographical mix is a true asset for the CNRS's scientific dynamism. On average, a third of the projects involve teams on the same site but the others cover the whole country - from Brest to Paris, via Perpignan. This shows collaboration projects aren't limited to the major research centres and that the CNRS is well established throughout France with fruitful exchanges between its different sites.

Finally, what are MITI's plans for the future?
M.K.: We're going to carry on with our mission of supporting exploratory and emerging projects. Each year, we launch about 200 new projects. We aim to keep a better track of what happens to these projects once their CNRS funding has ended. It's important to consolidate scientific momentum so we can then construct long-term momentum. Perhaps we will complete our survey to evaluate the impact of collaboration projects a few years after their launch. We're continuing to work on other aspects that can hinder interdisciplinarity like the visibility of publications and, in a broader sense, the recognition of researchers' career choices. The idea is to construct a research ecosystem that enables researchers working on interdisciplinary projects to flourish within the CNRS.

• 1The objective of the